As Germany & U.S. Agree on Tanks for Ukraine, German MP Accuses U.S. of Pushing Berlin into Proxy War & More Trending News


This is a rush transcript. Copy might not be in its remaining type.

AMY GOODMAN: Germany has formally introduced it should ship 14 German-made Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine and permit different NATO allies to ship extra German tanks to assist Kyiv in its battle in opposition to Russia. Germany made the announcement after the United States reportedly agreed to additionally ship 30 M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine. In a press release, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz mentioned, quote, “This decision follows our well-known line of supporting Ukraine to the best of our ability. We are acting in a closely coordinated manner internationally,” he mentioned. Germany can even present coaching and ammunition for the tanks.

Scholz had confronted intense stress in latest weeks from Poland, the United States and different European nations to approve the tanks, regardless of concern by many in Germany that it might result in an escalation of the warfare in Ukraine and retaliation by Russia. The head of the Left Party in Germany’s parliament warned the transfer, quote, “potentially takes us closer to a Third World War than in the direction of peace in Europe.”

Supporters of the choice embody NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, who has repeatedly urged NATO members to hurry up deliveries of heavy weapons to Ukraine.

JENS STOLTENBERG: The solely strategy to lasting peace is to make it clear to Putin that he is not going to win on the battlefield. Therefore, we should present heavier and extra superior programs in order that Ukrainian forces are in a position to repel the Russian forces, not solely to outlive, however to win, take again territory and prevail as a sovereign unbiased state in Europe.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re joined now by a member of Germany’s parliament, Sevim Dağdelen, a member of the opposition Left Party, elected to the German parliament in 2005 and a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. She’s additionally a member of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. She’s becoming a member of us from Havana, Cuba, the place she’s visiting as half of a delegation organized by the Progressive International.

Welcome to Democracy Now! It’s nice to have you ever with us. For individuals within the United States, they could notably not perceive what this controversy is about, for some individuals. Can you discuss what the choice means immediately, the announcement, to ship these Leopard tanks to Ukraine but in addition enable different international locations, like Poland, who’ve these tanks, and in Scandinavia, to have the ability to ship them to [Ukraine], as effectively, getting them initially from Germany?

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: Well, whats up, Amy. And thanks for having me.

This resolution, sending battle tanks to Ukraine from Germany and giving the choice that Poland and others can ship Leopard 2 German tanks to Ukraine, is a historic improper resolution. And it comes solely as a result of of the stress, the heavy stress, of the United States Biden administration, we’ve to say. Several months in the past, Chancellor Scholz, within the German parliament, within the Foreign Affairs Committee, mentioned it’s a pink line. It’s a line of escalation, sending battle tanks from Germany to Ukraine. That would cross a pink line. But the stress now was too heavy, too robust from the Biden administration to ship Germany within the frontline of this warfare. And it was the stress of the coalition companions, the Greens and the liberals — they’re really the neocons on this coalition in Germany. They formally mentioned that they might breach the coalition if these battle tanks, Leopard 2, wouldn’t be despatched by Chancellor Scholz to Ukraine. That was the issue.

And we at the moment are in a really dangerous scenario, as a result of I feel it’s a improper resolution, historic improper resolution, as a result of it’s in opposition to the bulk of the inhabitants in Germany. According to new polls within the final — within the latest days, the bulk in Germany is in opposition to sending battle tanks to Ukraine. The majority is in favor for extra diplomacy, for a negotiated peace in Ukraine.

And the opposite factor is, the thirty first of January would be the anniversary, the eightieth anniversary, of the battle in Stalingrad. And each household in Russia misplaced family members on this battle in Stalingrad. And you would not have to be a prophet to know that sending German tanks in opposition to Russia on this proxy warfare of the United States may have a far more mobilization within the Russian society on this warfare. So, which means you have got the other affect what you need really inside Russia in the direction of this warfare. And that is why it’s traditionally so improper to ship battle tanks.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Sevim Dağdelen, I wished to ask you — right here within the United States, the mass media are much more warlike than the federal government, always urgent the Biden administration to supply extra assist and more and more deadly assist to Ukraine. I’m questioning: What is the scenario in Germany in phrases of the media’s affect on your authorities leaders? How are they portraying or depicting the necessity for extra armaments for Ukraine?

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: Well, , we’ve a extremely extraordinarily warmongering ambiance in Germany, brought on by the media, the mainstream media, as effectively. And it was fascinating. I used to be, in March or in April final yr, within the United States, in Washington, D.C., and representatives of the State Department, of the Pentagon and the National Security Council, all of them mentioned that the German media made such a fantastic work in Germany to push the German new authorities for the Zeitenwende, for 100 billion euro for militarization and sending weapons and arms to Ukraine. And I feel, , it should be one thing improper if representatives of a 3rd state, like within the United States, are saying the German press is working effectively.

The downside is, the German mainstream press is a lot concerned, integrated inside the Atlantic Council, transatlantic suppose tanks and so on. So, many editors, primarily the principle editors, or chief editors, are corporated in these transatlantic suppose tanks. And that’s the issue. We have the coverage of curiosity of the United States. And I imagine it’s not even the curiosity of the inhabitants of the individuals within the United States. It’s the curiosity of an elite, of neocons within the United States, who’re having, clearly — clearly — having the place that Europe is like Latin America for the United States within the ’70s, and a continent the place you are able to do what you prefer is what you please. And that is actually an issue.

And clearly, it’s a good enterprise to have a warfare in Europe for the U.S. fracking business and for the military-industrial advanced within the United States. And that is additionally a concrete instance with sending tanks to Ukraine. Sending tanks from Germany and the German tanks, the Leopard 2, can be within the curiosity of the United States military-industrial advanced, as a result of their thesis, in the event that they get misplaced, the Leopard 2 tanks, the fashionable — essentially the most trendy weapon system in Europe, we do have, in tanks system, then they will provide their very own tanks, as a result of, you see, the opposite factor is, Scholz failed — Amy Goodman simply introduced Scholz failed in his demand in the direction of the United States to ship additionally tanks, battle tanks, to Ukraine, as a result of, in response to The Washington Post, it could possibly take a number of years, as much as a number of years, to ship the U.S. tanks.

So they’re pushing us, the Germans, into this fireplace, into the frontline of this fireplace, particularly concerning their very own pursuits, supplying their very own military-industrial merchandise, and to have the scenario that Germany and Russia, for good, don’t have any relations in any respect. I imply, that was prior to now. When you see the books of Brzezinski and so on, of many suppose tankers within the United States, it was all the time an goal by the United States elites to destroy the connection between Germany and Russia. And that is my concern, as a result of yesterday, final evening, already the Green overseas minister in Germany, Annalena Baerbock, began to say, formally, we’re preventing a warfare in opposition to Russia, she says. That means we’re in a warfare already in opposition to Russia. And that issues me quite a bit. And it issues me quite a bit additionally that many so-called progressives within the United States are supporting this line by the Biden administration to push Germany an increasing number of into this proxy warfare and, yeah, taking the chance that it could possibly have an extension to the Third World War.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And I wished —

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: And the issue is —

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: You talked about —

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: — having Third World War in a continent like Europe is not going to have an effect on you within the United States, 8,000 kilometers away from Europe. It will have an effect on our individuals in Europe.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: You talked about additionally the fracking business on this proxy warfare. Most Americans will not be conscious of the large income which are being made by U.S. pure fuel firms in consequence of this warfare, and the affect it’s having on the power wants of Europe. Could you discuss what’s occurring in Germany in phrases of fuel costs and the requirements for heating there?

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: Well, we’ve the — in response to the brand new publications by a number of financial institutes in Germany, we’ve an actual loss of wages of about 5%. So, it’s a concrete 4.7%. It’s the most important loss in actual wages in — the most important loss within the historical past of the Federal Republic of Germany since 1945. People can not afford to pay their rents, to pay the fuel costs, the power costs, the petrol. And they will’t afford even to pay for meals. That’s the issue. Two million individuals, the primary time in historical past in Germany final yr, they needed to go to the general public meals providers to get meals, and this in a single of essentially the most financial highly effective international locations on this planet. So, we’ve a extremely loss within the majority of the inhabitants.

And on the opposite aspect, we’ve an enormous revenue on the aspect of the businesses, greater than 100 billion revenue made by the business of power and oil firms and all the massive firms, as effectively. And the fracking business from the U.S. is a giant profiteer of this disaster, as effectively, of the sanctions. You know, it’s all brought on by the sanctions in opposition to Russia, these power sanctions. And it doesn’t hurt Russia. The Russian Gazprom agency, the corporate, made within the first half of 2022 greater than 40 billion simply revenue. Just profiting. And the identical on the finish of the yr. So they’re cashing in on this warfare. The just one who’s struggling is the inhabitants in Europe, as a result of of the sanctions, as a result of the sanctions are turning into a cost-effective warfare in opposition to our personal inhabitants.

And the fracking business from the United States, they’re sending now tanks of their soiled fuel from the United States, which is in opposition to the local weather, as effectively. And the factor is, one tank, they will get revenue as much as 200 million or 300 million euro. There isn’t any restrict in any respect, as a result of simply on the best way from the United States to Europe, the costs can rise. So, they’re making quite a bit of revenue, as a result of the necessity for Germany for this fuel is roughly that you’d want greater than 1,100 tanks per yr. And I can’t see that we are able to afford this to pay to the United States, compared to a budget and fewer soiled fuel from Russia.

AMY GOODMAN: Sevim Dağdelen —

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: That’s a extremely large downside for the German inhabitants.

AMY GOODMAN: I need to ask you about Germany’s new Defense Minister Boris Pistorius’s feedback simply earlier than we went to air. This is what he mentioned.

BORIS PISTORIUS: [translated] I imagine that this resolution is historic, as a result of it’s being made once more in a coordinated method, as a result of it’s being made in a extremely explosive scenario in Ukraine. And that’s the reason the choice deserves respect. But, of course, it additionally deserves the respect of everybody who is anxious that this warfare will proceed on this manner and that we are going to presumably undergo extra from it sooner or later than we wish immediately. … But one factor is evident: We is not going to change into a celebration to the warfare. We will be sure of that.

AMY GOODMAN: If you may reply to what the brand new protection minister mentioned, proper? The earlier protection minister, Lambrecht, she was —


AMY GOODMAN: — finally compelled to resign. And for those who can discuss this controversy and likewise reply to the division of progressives, from the United States to Germany, those who say, “Do not feed the military-industrial complex,” and those who say, “If Ukraine doesn’t get these heavy weapons, Russia will succeed in taking more land”?

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: Well, I actually should warn: All these illusionists, all these people who find themselves fantasizing a few victory in opposition to Russia, they’re underestimating Russia like Napoleon and Hitler did prior to now. And, , it’s a nuclear — essentially the most highly effective nuclear energy on this planet. And there is no such thing as a strategy to win a warfare, a traditional warfare, in opposition to such a nuclear energy. And that is the harmful half of this dialogue, that, on the one hand aspect, all of them are saying that President Putin from Russia is insane and he’s loopy and he’s a monster and no matter, they usually’re attempting to demonize him, like they did prior to now with Saddam Hussein or Gaddafi or anybody else they wished to place down — and the factor is, they are saying he’s loopy, however, on the opposite aspect, they are saying, “Well, it’s a bluff. We don’t think that Putin is so irrational to use nuclear weapons.” I imply, come on. We can not critically debate of utilizing nuclear weapons, as a result of if they are going to be used as soon as, it’s the tip of the human civilization, a minimum of in Europe, perhaps not within the United States, however in Europe undoubtedly. And that makes me actually fearful about it, this debate.

And the opposite factor is, the previous minister, Ministry of Defense in Germany, Christine Lambrecht, she was a lot underneath stress from the neocons in Germany, the Greens, the liberals and the mass media. They put her quite a bit of underneath stress to resign, as a result of they wished to interchange her with a extra transatlantic warmongerer than she was for them. She was not sufficient warmongering. And Pistorius was a, surprisingly, resolution made by Chancellor Scholz, however, sadly, he’s disappointing, as effectively, as a result of he’s not appearing in response to the need of the bulk of the inhabitants in Germany, that claims extra diplomacy for a negotiated peace relatively than sending battle tanks. He is now saying, “Well, we’re sending battle tanks in cooperation with our allies.”

And I’ve to say, very frankly, the United States has no allies. The United States is simply involved in their very own pursuits, and they’re simply involved in vessels. And that’s the purpose. Poland and so on, all the opposite international locations who had been pushing Germany and Chancellor Scholz to say sure to the Leopard 2 tanks, they’re additionally doing precisely that what the United States need from them. That’s the factor. The United States is pushing them into the entrance and saying them, “Please do this,” after which they’re placing the stress and creating an environment of stress to the German authorities, as a result of of the German historical past, two instances. Two world wars began from Germany with the assaults in opposition to Russia or, respectively, Soviet Union. And now we’re sending once more tanks in opposition to Russia, in opposition to Moscow. And our new overseas minister, I imply, she really says that Pistorius is improper, as a result of she really mentioned final evening, “We are in a war against Russia.” She mentioned that, actually.

So, which means I’m very involved that this isn’t the final resolution taken by, as a result of sending the Leopard 2 tanks, they aren’t a sport changer. In the long run or within the medium time period, they won’t change something on the bottom in Ukraine, as a result of Russia will react. And the issue is, now the nationalist authorities in Ukraine already demanded from Germany and from the NATO states actually huge fight plane programs, helicopters, Tornadoes, Eurofighters. And that is sensible. It’s comprehensible from the purpose of the Ukraine authorities to place NATO an increasing number of into this warfare to assist them to outlive. But I do suppose that it’s not a navy sport changer, sending the tanks, however it is going to be a political sport changer to place NATO states like Germany an increasing number of into this warfare in opposition to Russia. But we do want extra diplomacy to finish this killings, this mindless killings. Whoever needs to ship extra weapons to Ukraine is in favor of extra killings in Ukraine.

AMY GOODMAN: Sevim Dağdelen, we need to thanks very a lot for being with us, a member of the opposition Left Party in Germany, Kurdish German member of parliament, additionally a member of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, chatting with us from Havana, Cuba, the place she is there as half of a delegation of Progressive International.

Next up, the Doomsday Clock is moved nearer to midnight than ever earlier than. Back in 30 seconds.

As Germany & U.S. Agree on Tanks for Ukraine, German MP Accuses U.S. of Pushing Berlin into Proxy War

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